Home NEWS I’m Worried About Who’ll Succeed Me In Kaduna, Gov El-Rufai Confesses

I’m Worried About Who’ll Succeed Me In Kaduna, Gov El-Rufai Confesses

Governor Ahmed El-Rufai of Kaduna State has made it clear that he is more worried about who will succeed him at the end of his second term of eight years in office than who will be President from 2023.

Answering  reporters’ questions at the Presidential villa, Abuja today, February 24, Governor El-Rufai said: “it is something that keeps me awake at night.

“I’m more worried about succession in Kaduna than I am about the next President of Nigeria.

“On our part as a party, my hope is that our members will vote for someone from within our team to continue to build where we let off, correct some of our errors and go forward. That’s my hope.”

The Governor admitted that he has some preferences for who will succeed him.

“Of course, I have worked with people for 7, 8 years.  Some of them I have worked with for 20 years, I know them very well. I can guarantee that they will do this, they will do that. But at the end of the day, it’s up to the people of Kaduna State, if they buy my arguments.

“I’m unlikely to come out and anoint one person. I will keep my team in the room and try to get them to agree to a successor.

“But other than pray a lot and seek for God to choose for the people of Kaduna what is best for them, not necessarily what I want.”

The interview is reproduced verbatim hereunder:

Q: You have enlightened us on so many good things you’ve done in Kaduna state. Do you have a specific plan in place to ensure that soon after your second term in office, you have somebody or someone who would ensure these good things you have done remain as you end your regime?

Ans: he first question on succession and continuity. I wish there was an answer to that question. I wish there is a silver bullet. My hope is that the voters in Kaduna will first appreciate the difference between our eight years and the previous 16 years and vote for the APC again. The second thing is my hope is that one of the members of our current team, someone that has been part of this last seven years and knows the method behind madness okay, because everything that we’ve done, we fought through, we debated before implementing them. And if an outsider comes, it is very easy to see and persuade that outsider to take a different course. I’ve seen that happen in FCT, where some of the things that we put in place were reversed by my immediate successor because he is a complete outsider, he didn’t know what was done.  If someone within the FCT system that had worked with us the previous years had succeeded me as Minister for instance, there would have been some degree of continuity because there would be no debates about sacking teachers that are not qualified for instance.

If the people of Kaduna state vote back that other party, those thugs that we sacked will come back as teachers. There is nothing I can do about that. But my hope is that, as we saw in 2019, the people of Kaduna are smart enough, they have seen the difference between the two parties and governance styles and they will make the right decision.

On our part as a party, my hope is that our members will vote for someone from within our team to continue to build where we left off, correct some of our errors and go forward. That’s my hope. But it is something that keeps me awake at night. I’m more worried about succession in Kaduna than I am about the next President of Nigeria. But other than pray a lot and seek for God to choose for the people of Kaduna what is best for them, not necessarily what I want.

I have some preferences for who will succeed me. Of course, I’ve worked with people for 7, 8 years, some of them I’ve worked with for 20 years, I know them very well, I can guarantee that they will do this, they will do that. But at the end of the day, it’s up to the people of Kaduna State, if they buy my arguments.  I’m unlikely to come out and anoint one person. I will keep my team in the room and try to get them to agree to a successor. If they are able to agree then it’s easy to go out, this is our man, this is the person that was part of everything and he’s likely to continue to build on where we are, so support him. It will be easier to talk to the party leadership and membership to say this is the one that we all agreed of all the aspirants.

But you know, in politics, everybody thinks he can win so, it is not likely that you can convince people to agree on this and I will not force anyone. So, see how the selection process goes but you are right, it’s a major issue. But what can we do about it?

You just do your best and leave the rest to God.

Q: We also know that the security situation in some parts of the state seem to have defied solutions. What are you doing, apart from the kinetic measures that have been taken, what practical steps are you taking to ensure that these things come to an end?

Ans: On security, you know, one of the slides shows some of the non-kinetic measures we took to establish the Kaduna Peace Commission. We have the House of Kaduna Family. We have regular Security Council meetings. We are forming farmers/herders reconciliation committees at all local governments so that when there is any issue between farmers and herders, they will go in and be the first line of resolution and so on. But some of the insecurity challenges that have endured have more to do with ethnic or religious intolerance. This banditry is a new phenomenon.

The one that Kaduna has been famous for is ethno religious crisis. We have managed to contain that to a large extent and I think people are learning to live together. The ethnic enclaves, particularly in Kaduna, we have resolved it. You know, Muslims and Christians live together now because everyone feels safe enough. It will take a long time, but I think we’re moving in the right direction. I think the key issue is for people to understand that every Nigerian has the right to live anywhere in Nigeria that he or she chooses. You don’t have to agree with him, but so long as he is law abiding, you should let him be and there is beauty in diversity. The most advanced countries in the world are those that are the most diverse, there is beauty in that.  There is beauty in size, Nigeria is better, bigger together. So, it’s something that we have to keep working on, we have done our bit, we hope those that come after us will do theirs.

Q: You outlined efforts of your government in collaboration with federal armed forces to tackle issues of banditry and kidnapping in your state and in collaboration with Northwest states. Do you see the situation in the Northwest as more violent than the insurgency in the Northeast and if that is correct, why do you think this is so?

And: I am persuaded that the insurgency in the Northwest is far more lethal, far more serious than Boko Haram, both in terms of the numbers of people affected. In the reported cases, while 937 were killed and

1,972 kidnapped by bandits in the state in 2020, a total of 1,192 killed and 3,348 kidnapped in 2021, suggesting a deterioration in the situation. As you can see this is just Kaduna numbers, in one or two years. I can assure you the numbers in Zamfara and Katsina are two to three times this if they are keeping tabs. The numbers in Sokoto, Niger and Kebbi will be about this. So, we are talking of tens of thousands of people getting killed, getting kidnapped, is far more serious than Boko Haram. The only thing is that these guys don’t take territories. They are in the forests, ungoverned spaces. So, they do not attract the same kind of single-minded attention that Boko Haram does and because Boko Haram’s ideologies is religious or contentiously religious, you know, it elicits more passion. But really, this is a far more serious problem because this is largely a situation in which people of about the same ethnicity, about the same religion, you know, killing each other, stealing each other’s property, creating an industry out of criminality. It’s very serious and it requires single-minded attention. And I have told you, and I’ll come to that, you know, as I said, which will lead you to the next question.

Q: The concern is the economy of the banditry. You mentioned that you know the bandits, you know where they are, you intercept their communication. The millions of Naira being collected as ransom taken to bushes and the forests, are you tracking them? And if you are tracking them, have you arrested those behind those who are operating at the strategic level of banditry. Not the Fulanis in the bush, but the custodian of the millions of Naira?

Ans: Yes, we know where these bandits are, we have the maps, we have their camps, but somebody has to go in and kill them. I can’t do that. Now, if that somebody doesn’t have enough men, doesn’t have enough firepower, doesn’t have technology, no one is going to commit suicide. This is why, under this administration, the Nigerian Governors’ Forum collaborated with the federal government to take money from the Excess Crude Account to buy the Super Tucanos and other armaments to help strengthen our defense infrastructure, we have to continue to do that.

Secondly, how many men and women do we have in the armed forces and the police and look at how stressed they are? The last time I checked, the Nigerian army is engaged in internal security operations in 32 states. So how many people can you spare at a time to go into these forests, these are the issues. Of course, you cannot double the size of the armed forces and police overnight, it requires selection, training and so on, but you can invest in superior armaments and technology, which can bridge that deficit and that requires a lot of money.

There is also another constraint; the fact that these guys are just disorganized groups, so you cannot call them insurgents until the Federal High Court, on the application of the Attorney-General, looked at all the facts and said these guys are terrorists. Until that declaration was made, any military action against them could be considered a crime against humanity and while we’re waiting for that, these guys have strengthened, they have collected a lot of money, they have done this, they have done that. So, we are facing a massive monster that has been financially oiled and the arms are there from the collapse of Libya and they are coming in, some of them (arms) superior to what our police and armed forces have.

So, there’s a lot of work that needs to be done. Intelligence is the first step, we have that, but now we must have the capability to be able to go in and wipe out these guys. And we should not do so if it will mean putting our soldiers and our policemen at risk. One of the new phenomena that was observed in the last month or two is planting of land mines. This one is Boko Haram, it’s not bandits. We lost five soldiers in an APC (Armed Personnel Carrier) that you got on the mine. Last week, a cow stepped on a mine and died. Luckily no one was killed. So, it’s a complex problem and it requires a coordinated solution, but the solution is on the table and our hope is that this will be implemented very quickly.

Q: Follow up, you said you have invested in technology and you know where these people are and also said you listen to the conversation of some of these people. Why is it difficult to have unanimity of purpose? You said you are ready to eliminate these people, but why is it that the stakeholders have not come together to actually pursue this strategy you are making that they should eliminate these people since you know where they are to avoid conspiracy theories?

Ans: A lot of work was done to track the financing of Boko Haram and their supply chain. Part of the reason why they have been surrendering in droves was because the financing has been cut off and their logistics chain was disrupted, thanks to the government of the United Arab Emirates that caught some people sending money from there to here, that was linked to Boko Haram and then our own intelligence agency here did a very good work.

I was shocked to learn that one of the leading financiers of Boko Haram lived in Zaria, Kaduna State. I was shocked and when I saw the amount of money that went through his account, I said how come I didn’t know this, I would have taxed the man. So, it was an excellent job done by the Nigerian security agencies, it was mostly military intelligence that did it and I think a similar exercise needs to be launched for the bandits because the report of the Boko Haram has also shown some links to some of the bandit leaders and even some military or police officers.

So, that needs to be done and we have already made the case to the federal government to ensure that that is done because if we can cut out the finance and the supply chain, you are right nobody will take N200 million and keep it in the forest, it’s in the towns and we have to find that and we have to do something about it. Once we can cut off the financing and seize the monies that they have accumulated and disrupt their logistics supply chain, 50% of the job is done. That’s why Boko Haram people were surrendering, it’s not that they are repentant, they are starving, no food, no money.

Q: Are you also concerned about infiltrators and moles  within the security agencies that might be disempowering your efforts. If you were the President of Nigeria, and I need you to confirm this actually  if you have the intentions.

Ans: If I am concerned that there are infiltrators?  Yes, we are concerned and it is impossible to have infiltrators. As I  alluded to when I was answering this question, the preliminary report of the Boko Haram financing also showed some links to bandits  and pointed to some police and military officers in service as having some communication or connection with the bandits. Okay. So there’s always that risk in any system you have traitors. And they’re concerned about that. But till date, we don’t have any firm evidence of that. I think a lot more work needs to be done. As I said, we need to pursue the financing, and logistics chain of the banditry as well because the amount of money this bandits are making is enough to stabilize  this country. It is a lot of money.

We only have an idea of what it is because those that made the payment don’t tell us the truth all the time. But we hear from the legal intercepts  of the conversations  about how much money they are asking you for, how much they have received and so on. The numbers are mind boggling. It’s a major source of national insecurity. And it will grow unless it is decisively dealt with. So yeah, I am concerned.

Now, you said if I were the President what would I do?  First I’m not President, I’ve not thought about being President and I have privileged access to this President. So if there is anything that I think the President should do I would have told Mr. President. So, I will not tell you what I told him that needs to be done. Because my discussion with the president is privileged, unless he says that he wants to disclose it, but we have discussed what needs to be done and I am assured that is going to be done. That’s all I can say.

Q: The question has to do with your political ambition after working as governor of Kaduna State. There is this rumour that you  are likely to work with somebody from Southwest as Vice President. Can you please confirm?

Ans: You said you want to know about my ambition. I have  zero ambition. I just want to finish this job and get on with my private life, write another book. The largest amount of money I ever got in my life was from writing Accidental Public Servant and its still selling.

I have no ambition. I’ve never had any ambition and if I die today I am quite accomplished and happy. Because I never in my life, based on my humble background ever thought I would even enter  this building (Aso Rock Villa)  ever in my life. How would I ever enter where the President’s office is?  So for me even being here is a privilege if you know my background and God has been very kind to me. And my outings in public service have all been satisfactory and why push my luck and go for a job with a 90% chance of failure?

So I’m not, you know, an ambitious person. I’m just a person that gets things done when given the opportunity. And that’s why, you know, I’ve never lobbied for a job. I’ve never desired even this governorship. It was President Buhari that literally forced me to run. I wasn’t interested in it. I just wanted us to defeat Jonathan and enjoy myself as one special adviser on domestic affairs. So that any time they are flying to New York, I’m there. That is the life and not having  gray hairs. But you know, the President insisted that some of us must go run for governorship. Just in case he did not get elected again. He felt that, you know, we needed some strong governors, those were the words he used. So I was forced into this. I’ve never desired to be minister of FCT until President Obasanjp just called me and said I am appointing you. I’ve never wanted to be DG BPE,  I was called and given.  That’s it. So I have zero ambitions. I have no aspirations.

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Q: Two days ago, in this same hall, you spoke about APC politics. Specifically, you mentioned the disagreement between the governors of APC prior to that day, and shortly after, we heard information about the zoning arrangement  of the APC. And with the look at things the president will likely come from the south in 2023. As governor of Kaduna state, and the critical stakeholder in APC are you likely to support your southwest candidate for presidency?

And: I want to clarify that the APCs zoning  arrangement that we announced is the zoning amendment to the party. Okay, and we always did that, in the last three elections we have had. When we elected Chief John Oyegun as  Chairman, we had this zoning arrangement, each zone you will have  these petitions  and so far six zones. And we carried that to the time when Adams Oshiomhole assumed office  as chairman. All we did now is to flip it. Since the chairman is going to be from North Central, it means that north central will take all the positions of south south. If you check, you will see all the positions allocated to North Central were positions held by South South under Oyegun and under Oshiomhole.  Now, all the positions held by Northwest went to the south east and vice versa. All the positions held by Northeast went to southwest and vice versa. That’s why Southwest will now produce the national secretary.

The National Secretary under Oyegun and Oshiomhole was Mai Bala Buni. So that all we did. We are not talking about the presidency yet. When we do this convention to elect national officers, then we start preparing for the primaries that we produce our candidates for House of Assembly, House of Reps, Senate and the Presidency. That is when that conversation will take place. What we have done with the zoning  presented to Mr. President on Tuesday, which he has approved, is sending a signal about the direction of the party, it is not zoning  any presidency to anyone yet. But we’ve sent a signal Okay.

And you asked me if I would support a Southwest candidate? I will support any APC candidate if I’m satisfied he will do the best for Nigeria. I will. It  doesn’t matter where he’s from Southwest, Southeast south south. APC is what matters and the quality of the person. And the discussion we are having is that the presidency is zoned to the South. It is not  zoned to any particular place in the south, the South will have the first go at it but we’re waiting to see who the aspirants are. A few people have declared their interest. As for me personally, all I can tell you is unless in an exceptional situation, once President Buhari tells me this is the one I want to be my successor, that’s where I am going  because I trust his judgement.

Now if I agree, I will go into a room and tell him. We have done that a few times and he knows. I will tell him sir, this is not right and these are my reasons. But if he still says yes, I have heard you, Nasir. That’s what I want, okay I will do it.

Q: Your four days a week work policy, what are the benefits and the challenges?

Ans: As you know, Kaduna state, in spite of us governance reforms, introduced the four-day work week. We work from Mondays to Thursdays. Our weekend starts today, Thursday. Tomorrow, nobody goes to work in the Kaduna State public service unless you want to. Personally, I use Friday as my catch up day, I go to the office. But I don’t take visitors. I just use it to catch up on paperwork, read long memos, and so on. And we usually have our executive council meetings on mondays. The memos go out on Thursday, so you have time to read.

Q: What are the benefits? Ans: The benefits are that people rest more, they have more family time, they have more leisure time and they spend more money is better for the economy. For those that are interested in doing a side business like farming, you have more time.

The challenges that we face, which we have resolved as far as public service is concerned, is the impact on education. But we found that that was the easiest, because schools have classes up to 12.

Anyway, on Fridays, four hours. So we just increased Monday through Thursday, by one hour each so we recovered that. The health sector was the easiest, because the health sector always operated a shift system, 36 hours a week. Where we are having challenges is with the private sector, because of overtime. Because now if you work on Fridays, it is extra pay because it’s overtime. So we have not imposed it on the private sector yet. We are discussing with them to have a transition period of two to three years, but certainly in the public sector we have  resolved all the issues. We are drafting the regulations to gazette them and everyone in Kaduna is happy with it.  There are some people that try to give it a religious angle to say oh, you know, El-Rufai is doing this because he wants Muslims to have Friday off. But the truth of the matter is Friday has always been half day anyway, most people don’t work more than one or two hours on Friday. So in terms of time, we’re not losing anything in terms of religion, if you say religion, so why have Muslims never complained that Sunday is day off. And when one pastor because we have interactive sessions from time to time on religious harmony and so on. So when one pastor raised that, I told him, you know, you can go to work on Friday, there is no law stopping you but we will stay at home. So these are the benefits and the challenges are all around the private sector. The extra costs to the private sector arising from increased overtime costs. But this has been implemented in many countries, many private companies and they have published the benefits.

When people rest more they are more productive when they come on Monday. They do much more work. And most people are tired by Thursday anyway, I mean let’s be realistic. I don’t know how the people in Lagos survive it, every day four hours in traffic for five days, if Saturday and Sunday are enough for them to rest.

That’s why I think that all those that lived in Lagos for 20 years should just go straight to heaven because they have already lived in hell.

So for us the four day work is working very well. There is no salary cut, nothing. You have an extra day on your hands to catch up. And we are encouraging people to go back to school. We have many universities and polytechnics in Kaduna State. Go and keep educating yourself. So that Friday will help and we have  also been using Friday as the training day. When you want to do internal training, seminars and so on.

We do that in Kaduna State Government. I know it is strange to some people, but we do seminars, we do brown bag to share experiences and leadership challenges. So yeah, it is working for us. But these are the challenges and we’re working on them. When we have the full route of regulations, gazetted we’d be happy to share them with you. But we believe that the world is going that direction.

And where did we learn that? It was the experience of COVID-19.

For 15 months, all employees of the Kaduna state government below level 12 were not going to work and they were being paid  full salary. And the government was working then we realized that do we even need these people? But it convinced us that we can do more with less. And that coming to the four walls of an office, is not necessarily the only way to work. COVID forced us to recognize that. Luckily, you know, our technological platform as a government was quite advanced. So we were communicating with each other. So this is how the discussions started  and then when we realized that Finland was doing it,  Denmark, you know, some American companies are doing it,  the UK is introducing it. Iceland has done it for years. France, we said why not?  Kaduna has always been the outlier, let us try it. We are the guinea pigs.

Q: You said earlier that Nigeria will produce its first steel by a private company, could you give us details on that. How many tonnes would be produced,  which of the companies involved in any detail that you can provide please?

Ans: Unfortunately, I cannot answer the question. I don’t have the technical details. I am a leader at the political level if I had come with the commissioner, business, innovation  and technology he could have read the numbers  for you. All I know is that it is a $600 million investment on 143 hectares of land. And this is what it looks like. What I would like to suggest is we can arrange a visit to the facility before commissioning. So that you can see first hand the facilities and see what Ajaokuta could have been if we didn’t go to the Russians.

Q: Kaduna-Abuja road is quite safe.

Ans:I just gave you a brief of the number of security  operations in the north and don’t worry, we will make sure you’re protected on that day. But I think it’s something worth doing because I think it’s a transformational moment for Nigeria’s industrialization and everyone should be proud of it and we should be celebrating more.  And we will  be happy to arrange for you to go visit and ask them these questions. How much have you invested, how many tones are you producing etc? Because they said they have enough iron ore to last them like 30 years.

Q: Could you please also give us a sense of the financial investment your state has made in terms of insecurity because you said you are paid about N200 million a month or even more. And how much were you refunded by the federal government?

Ans; How much have we spent on security? The last time we calculated in recurrent that is security support to federal agencies and our own vigilance service and so on. We have spent close to N21 billion. But we are talking about seven years. Okay. In terms of capital investment, drones, safe city, radio frequency, GSM Tracker, we bought our own. We don’t rely on the NSA or the DSS,  we have ours. We bought all these, the forensic lab, I think by the time we will be done. I don’t know another N10, N12 billion. And how much have we been reimbursed by the federal government? N100 million for the security operation we did in 2016. Look, we’re not talking about reimbursement  or anything, but it is what it is if we are going to achieve food security. We continue to invest in this. We don’t count the cost of security, we just want to achieve full human security. That’s what bothers us.

Q: What’s your view on the reluctance of the federal government to name and shame Boko Haram financers? A long time ago we were told  that the government is prepared to expose them. We’re still waiting.

On naming and shaming Boko Haram and financiers?

Ans: I’m sure there’s a good reason for it. It’s not about naming and shaming, most of them are in custody, they are going to be tried. And you need to be very careful how much you reveal before putting them on trial. Virtually all of them are in custody I can assure you that. Because the operation included my state so  I was being briefed as it was going on. We know the names, we know everything. But what benefit is it? What change is there when they’re already in custody. They will be on trial soon and their trial is likely to be public. So you will know them, but they’re everywhere, including in Lagos and Port Harcourt, all over Nigeria. But I’m sure there is a good reason why Minister Lai Mohammed did not mention their names and the reasons have to do with the fact that they are going to be tried.

Q: In the last seven years or so, we’ve seen all the beautiful work we’ve been able to do in Kaduna state and I know  IGR and the federal allocation will not be enough to execute these projects. I’m also aware in the past you have had courses to approach the National Assembly for loans. As we speak, what’s the debt profile  of Kaduna State?

Ans: When we came into office, Kaduna  was the second most indebted state in Nigeria after Lagos and we are still the second most indebted state not close to Lagos. We have borrowed. Yes. Every state has borrowed. In a time of recession, the only way to sustain growth is through borrowing. The people that are saying that the federal government is borrowing forgot that the previous government enjoyed $100 a barrel oil price, squandered it all and still borrowed and did nothing with it. No infrastructure, no investment, all consumption, private jets, Nigeria had more private jets than any country on the continent. That’s how the money went. Now we have taken over years of infrastructure deficits, years of under investment in human capital. And every year we add eight million babies and 5 million young people join the workforce. How are you going to deal with that?

Just to maintain the levels of unemployment, we must create 5 billion jobs every year. What do you think about that? The only way to do this is to massively invest in infrastructure that would enable investments that would enable investors to come in and put and create those jobs that you need. This is what this government has been doing. It has been borrowing Yes. But you can see the results of the borrowing.Kaduna state government  has borrowed under my watch yes to go to kaduna you will see it  with your eyes. Before they were borrowing the money, they ended up buying apartments in Dubai. Nothing in Kaduna. Today, property values in Kaduna are rising, people are building everybody wants to have a housing company because rents are rising. There is business activity, there is investment.Why? Because we invested in infrastructure. How much is the debt profile? What are the numbers? I don’t know off the top of my head. If I come with the commissioner of budget and planning he can reel out the numbers of foreign and domestic debt and what is our debt service. Yes we have borrowed but the results are there and the investments are flowing in, and we will be fine by the grace of God.

Q: What is the role of CSOs in the successes recorded by your administration in kaduna  in the past six and half years?

Ans: Civil Society Organizations have been major partners, frankly, in Kaduna, in virtually every facet, we try to engage and get input from civil society from our budgeting to our social protection plans. The Open Government Partnership committee, for instance, is co-chaired by someone from the government and so from civil society. For sexual and gender based violence we have engaged actively with civil society. We are the first state to pass the gender protection bill. We actively engaged with them.  In fact, with our fiscal responsibility Commission, we have the head of budgets Seun Onigbinde as one of the commissioners of our fiscal responsibility commission. So we have civil society members on certain regulatory bodies of the Kaduna state government. So that they see what we’re doing and they have their inputs. They  can be a nuisance sometimes. But the nuisance ones are the ones that are detached from the problem. For instance, a civil society organization that  is in Kaduna, knows what we are doing. But you will hear SERAP sitting in Ikeja  writing, Kaduna State government must give us this  Freedom of information Act. Our Freedom of Information Law says you cannot ask us for information unless you are a resident of Kaduna state. We are only accountable to the people in Kaduna not to you. You can’t sit  in Lagos just because you want to impress donors and collect dollars and say you are fighting. You write to me from Ikeja and say you want this from Kaduna. I am  not giving, so what are you going to do? No seriously, when civil society engages honestly and they want to be helpful, they want to be partners. There is nothing better than that. But when they want to get headlines, or donor money, they can be disruptive. But we’ve not had that experience in Kaduna. Because like I said, we know how to deal with the Lagos civil society, newspaper headlines and social media Titans. So I will recommend to everyone to engage very actively with their local civil society organization, they are close to the people, they give an alternative view, they give you a voice that helps make policy better. And we have  never regretted it, you know, our partnerships BUDGIT and many other responsible civil society organizations.

In our Peace Commission, for instance, our revenue board  we have them because they’re a good idea, a critical eye and someone is reminding me that many of them we brought into the government to help. So yes, you know, civil society is good most of the time.

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